How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or in the DoD?

[DarkProtoman]

How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or the DoD?
BTW, I'm in high school, I took California's High School Proficency
Exam, and I'm now eligible to enroll in Cypress College's Honors
Program. I'm 16.

Earn an AS in Biology while enrolled in the Cypress College Honors
Program
Earn a SB in Biology and a minor in mathematics at MIT
Earn a MPhil in Biochemistry from King's College of Cambridge
University
Earn a SM in Bioengineering from the Harvard School of Engineering and
Applied Sciences
Earn a MD from the Harvard-MIT HST program, become a HHMI-NIH Research
Scholar during sophomore year
Earn a PhD in Bioengineering from MIT
Take internal medicine residency at Massachusets General Hospital
Take postdoc(s) at Genentech, MIT, Harvard, and/or Cambridge.

How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or the DoD?
Thanks!!!!

BTW, what would I put on my labcoat/nameplate if I successfully
complete this plan? All of my degrees, or just the highest --MD, PhD--?

[Straydog]

Post by DarkProtoman
How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or the DoD?
BTW, I'm in high school, I took California's High School Proficency
Exam, and I'm now eligible to enroll in Cypress College's Honors
Program. I'm 16.
Earn an AS in Biology while enrolled in the Cypress College Honors
Program
Earn a SB in Biology and a minor in mathematics at MIT
Earn a MPhil in Biochemistry from King's College of Cambridge
University
Earn a SM in Bioengineering from the Harvard School of Engineering and
Applied Sciences
Earn a MD from the Harvard-MIT HST program, become a HHMI-NIH Research
Scholar during sophomore year
Earn a PhD in Bioengineering from MIT
Take internal medicine residency at Massachusets General Hospital
Take postdoc(s) at Genentech, MIT, Harvard, and/or Cambridge.
How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or the DoD?

Take my word for it, you don't need that much. Just get a BS from one of
the top 10-20 undergrad schools (preferably elite [if you can get in]),
then--seriously--skip the MS degree, and get your PhD from one of the top
10-20 research universities. Then, to top off, do your postdoc, also, at
one of the top 10-20 elite labs (if biology, then eg. Cold Spring Harbor,
Whitehead).

Get the MD in a MD-PhD prgram (5 years, it should be). But, don't forget
you have to get _in_ medical school.

Do NOT do postdocs in private industry. Only do one postdoc, not less than
3 years, not more than 4.

You would do well to avoid being associated with Nobel prise winners
because they always (unless you can demonstrate otherwise) are out giving
seminars all over the world making more money off honorariums than their
salaries. You want a guy who will be around to mentor you and help you get
your career going.

Post by DarkProtoman
Thanks!!!!
BTW, what would I put on my labcoat/nameplate if I successfully
complete this plan? All of my degrees, or just the highest --MD, PhD--?

If you get both MD & PhD, then you can put them both (forget lessor
degrees) on and have one-upsmanship over those who have only one
doctorate.

Don't forget one thing: the war is NOT with credential collection like you
listed above. The war is about making significant discoveries and
contributions (papers in peer-reviewed journals) AND getting large
grants/contracts AND surviving the politics.

Best advice: start making contact (if you are interested in biomedical
outcomes) with people in labs doing grant-funded research and see if you
can get any kind of part-time lab work (so you can get close to many
people actually doing real research and talk with them), or even
volunteer work. If you play this right, you get them (faculty) to write
letters of recommendation for you (you will need these).

Me, I am a retired research professor. I was at UMAB SoM (Baltimore),
Departments of Biophysics and Pathology. Hopkins was our competitor, not
Georgetown.

[DarkProtoman]

Post by Straydog

Post by DarkProtoman
How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or the DoD?
BTW, I'm in high school, I took California's High School Proficency
Exam, and I'm now eligible to enroll in Cypress College's Honors
Program. I'm 16.
Earn an AS in Biology while enrolled in the Cypress College Honors
Program
Earn a SB in Biology and a minor in mathematics at MIT
Earn a MPhil in Biochemistry from King's College of Cambridge
University
Earn a SM in Bioengineering from the Harvard School of Engineering and
Applied Sciences
Earn a MD from the Harvard-MIT HST program, become aHHMI-NIHResearch
Scholar during sophomore year
Earn a PhD in Bioengineering from MIT
Take internal medicine residency at Massachusets General Hospital
Take postdoc(s) at Genentech, MIT, Harvard, and/or Cambridge.
How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or the DoD?

Take my word for it, you don't need that much. Just get a BS from one of
the top 10-20 undergrad schools (preferably elite [if you can get in]),
then--seriously--skip the MS degree, and get your PhD from one of the top
10-20researchuniversities. Then, to top off, do your postdoc, also, at
one of the top 10-20 elite labs (if biology, then eg. Cold Spring Harbor,
Whitehead).
Get the MD in a MD-PhD prgram (5 years, it should be). But, don't forget
you have to get _in_ medical school.
Do NOT do postdocs in private industry. Only do one postdoc, not less than
3 years, not more than 4.
You would do well to avoid being associated with Nobel prise winners
because they always (unless you can demonstrate otherwise) are out giving
seminars all over the world making more money off honorariums than their
salaries. You want a guy who will be around to mentor you and help you get
your career going.

Post by DarkProtoman
Thanks!!!!
BTW, what would I put on my labcoat/nameplate if I successfully
complete this plan? All of my degrees, or just the highest --MD, PhD--?

If you get both MD & PhD, then you can put them both (forget lessor
degrees) on and have one-upsmanship over those who have only one
doctorate.
Don't forget one thing: the war is NOT with credential collection like you
listed above. The war is about making significant discoveries and
contributions (papers in peer-reviewed journals) AND getting large
grants/contracts AND surviving the politics.
Best advice: start making contact (if you are interested in biomedical
outcomes) with people in labs doing grant-fundedresearchand see if you
can get any kind of part-time lab work (so you can get close to many
people actually doing realresearchand talk with them), or even
volunteer work. If you play this right, you get them (faculty) to write
letters of recommendation for you (you will need these).
Me, I am a retiredresearchprofessor. I was at UMAB SoM (Baltimore),
Departments of Biophysics and Pathology. Hopkins was our competitor, not
Georgetown.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Why should I skip the master's degrees? Aren't they supposed to be
prep for the PhD? And I really do want to spend some time at
Cambridge. The only reason I'm not doing my undergrad there is that it
might be difficult to get into a US med school like HMS. I don't plan
on being associated w/ Nobel prize winners, just elite institutions.

What was your academic history? Degrees, awards, etc.

This really is GREAT advice! Any other advice I should know?

Thanks!

[Aging_Recycled_Scientist]

M.s. degrees are not necessary any more. Waste of time.

You will find a lot of advise on www.science.careers.org

[Straydog]

Post by DarkProtoman

Post by Straydog

Post by DarkProtoman
How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or the DoD?
BTW, I'm in high school, I took California's High School Proficency
Exam, and I'm now eligible to enroll in Cypress College's Honors
Program. I'm 16.
Earn an AS in Biology while enrolled in the Cypress College Honors
Program
Earn a SB in Biology and a minor in mathematics at MIT
Earn a MPhil in Biochemistry from King's College of Cambridge
University
Earn a SM in Bioengineering from the Harvard School of Engineering and
Applied Sciences
Earn a MD from the Harvard-MIT HST program, become aHHMI-NIHResearch
Scholar during sophomore year
Earn a PhD in Bioengineering from MIT
Take internal medicine residency at Massachusets General Hospital
Take postdoc(s) at Genentech, MIT, Harvard, and/or Cambridge.
How would this look for a career in academia, industry, or the DoD?

Take my word for it, you don't need that much. Just get a BS from one of
the top 10-20 undergrad schools (preferably elite [if you can get in]),
then--seriously--skip the MS degree, and get your PhD from one of the top
10-20researchuniversities. Then, to top off, do your postdoc, also, at
one of the top 10-20 elite labs (if biology, then eg. Cold Spring Harbor,
Whitehead).
Get the MD in a MD-PhD prgram (5 years, it should be). But, don't forget
you have to get _in_ medical school.
Do NOT do postdocs in private industry. Only do one postdoc, not less than
3 years, not more than 4.
You would do well to avoid being associated with Nobel prise winners
because they always (unless you can demonstrate otherwise) are out giving
seminars all over the world making more money off honorariums than their
salaries. You want a guy who will be around to mentor you and help you get
your career going.

Post by DarkProtoman
Thanks!!!!
BTW, what would I put on my labcoat/nameplate if I successfully
complete this plan? All of my degrees, or just the highest --MD, PhD--?

If you get both MD & PhD, then you can put them both (forget lessor
degrees) on and have one-upsmanship over those who have only one
doctorate.
Don't forget one thing: the war is NOT with credential collection like you
listed above. The war is about making significant discoveries and
contributions (papers in peer-reviewed journals) AND getting large
grants/contracts AND surviving the politics.
Best advice: start making contact (if you are interested in biomedical
outcomes) with people in labs doing grant-fundedresearchand see if you
can get any kind of part-time lab work (so you can get close to many
people actually doing realresearchand talk with them), or even
volunteer work. If you play this right, you get them (faculty) to write
letters of recommendation for you (you will need these).
Me, I am a retiredresearchprofessor. I was at UMAB SoM (Baltimore),
Departments of Biophysics and Pathology. Hopkins was our competitor, not
Georgetown.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Why should I skip the master's degrees? Aren't they supposed to be
prep for the PhD?

A MS degree is good for people who have not decided what they want to do
or are not sure about the place and want to "try out" the atmosphere,
quality of faculty, etc., or are not sure of their own capabilities.
HOWEVER, if you are sure of yourself and are a high capability person,
then you are wasting time. You really need the highest credentials ASAP
and once you get them, then all the earlier credentials will diminish in
importance. People are going to ask where you got your PhD or MD and be
impressed with that more than where you got your BS or MS.

You don't have to believe me, just ask everyone else and see what they
say.

And I really do want to spend some time at

Post by DarkProtoman
Cambridge. The only reason I'm not doing my undergrad there is that it
might be difficult to get into a US med school like HMS. I don't plan
on being associated w/ Nobel prize winners, just elite institutions.

Its not how many places you've been at, but where you end up that counts
most. If you want prestige, stay with the top name places in academia.
Also stay with the places that get the most money, have biggest programs,
and neon signs glowing at night. Its a big mistake and there is a ton of
envy out there for the "rich" institutions, but I can tell you that
everyone wishes they were at a better (read: rich) institution. Downside:
politics. You need to look over your shoulder (daggars always come from
behind).

Post by DarkProtoman
What was your academic history? Degrees, awards, etc.

I'd have to send you a copy of my CV, but if you can handle a compressed
zip file, I have 500 kb of essays, references, publications, sources, all
serious stuff --including politics and bad news, and can send you that as
an attached file to your email address and you can spend a couple hours
and have it straight from someone who has "been there".

Post by DarkProtoman
This really is GREAT advice! Any other advice I should know?

Read my essays.

Post by DarkProtoman
Thanks!

[carrera d'olbani]

Post by Straydog
You need to look over your shoulder (daggars always come from
behind).

If they come from behind, you cannot see them in principle. You cannot
predict from which direction (behind you) at what time the enemy will
strike. You cannot see in all directions. Been there. I do not go far
to find a recent example. My manager completed the appraisal form of
me, but then he went away for a month. He told me he would sign it
when he is back. One of my direct supervisor suggested to him that the
manager's deputy could sign it. The manager refused; he said he would
do it himself when he is back. I am paranoid, and this tells me that
there is a politics going on. Maybe they want to kick me out.

[Straydog]

I tried to send you an attached file and got a bounceback error message.

You'll have to give me a better email address where a 300kb file can be
sent and you get it.

[DarkProtoman]

Post by Straydog
I tried to send you an attached file and got a bounceback error message.
You'll have to give me a better email address where a 300kb file can be
sent and you get it.

Hmm... that's my only email. Try unzipping them and sending them
individually.

[Straydog]

Post by DarkProtoman

Post by Straydog
I tried to send you an attached file and got a bounceback error message.
You'll have to give me a better email address where a 300kb file can be
sent and you get it.

Hmm... that's my only email. Try unzipping them and sending them
individually.

That's a ton of work. Maybe you should try to get yourself a yahoo email
account (I know they take attached files and you can download them from
the yahoo website)

However, here is what I did for you. I got out all of the old website
files and put them on my hobby website. So here is what you do:

i) go to: http://www.panix.com/~asd

where you will find, as the very first line on the home page (which is
otherwise all about the history of my ham radio station), the sentence:

"CPSJ Essays" and a color link (that should start blue until after you
click it). The CPSJ stands for "Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs"

Click on that and it will take you to the CPSJ menu which has a lot of
stuff, some updated to about 2003-2004.

I'd recommend that you download all of it for future reference.

My CV is there, too. You can find all of those publications and books and
book chapters if you want to look closer. The grant numbers are real; they
can be verified.

Bear in mind that a lot of the URLs I cited are surely obsolete, but some
to NSF or NIH should still be good, but you never know. The only thing
that will last is ink printed on paper. I've found lots of links that
don't work any more.

Bear in mind one thing: you are barking up a very very tough tree to
climb. There is a lot of competition and there is a lot of attrition. And,
maybe half of the attrition is because people find the climb not worth
what it takes, and another half of the attrition is because of politics,
back-stabing, bad luck, grant committees axing your proposals (at best
only one in five grant proposals are funded and at worst one in ten, or
worse. one or two rounds of that is very discouraging), tenure review
committees axing your tenure (you won't get tenure in medical schools any
more, anyway, and in most other departments your tenure is in office, not
in the paycheck). Industry isn't any better with jobs going to India and
China like water over Niagara Falls. The right place in government might
be OK, but it can be boring and bureaucratic).

Most of my website is meant to convince you that life is better almost
anyplace else. HOWEVER, there is a fun component that you won't find in
many places, either. I have made a few discoveries and that is a novel
experience. It is novel to recognize that you discovered even an artifact
and can come up with good evidence about its origin.

If you get publications (remember, peer-reviewed or nothing), they can't
take that away from you.

Above all, you need to beg, plead, petition, ask, reason with as many
faculty--particularly the older ones who have the experience--to tell you
what the story is. You need to ask for "what is the realistic picture?"
and not the touchy-feelie, warm-fuzzy, platitudes-of-fantasy story.

Not that many guys retire from their jobs as scientists. And, oh yes, not
only can the daggars come from behind you (look over your shoulder) but
also from in front of you, too. Some of these stories can be found in
some of the biographies of scientists. You need to get a good feeling for
reality. Personality conflicts also happen and you can run accross people
that just don't like you no matter what you do, and, conversely, you will
surely run into people you don't like, no matter what _they_ do.

I have an alternat email address in case you can't get through to me from
where I'm posting this. The alternate is: ***@yahoo.com

Good luck.

[rick++]

Try to get your name on a published paper while as
an undergraduate. A good fraction of MIT undergraduates
do research in a specially designed program. I believe
Harvard might have one of those programs too.
A timetable might be to (1) identify a lab
you like by 2nd semester freshman (2) get your name
on a paper by junior so you can put that on graduate
applications.

MIT just created a new major called Biological Engineering.
(It had been lurking inside EE and ME for some decades.)
That way you can look keep the options of both med school
or engineering open. Since many med schools only admit
less than 10% of their applicants, they like people who can
do the traditional courses plus something special extra.

[carrera d'olbani]

Post by rick++
Try to get your name on a published paper while as
an undergraduate. A good fraction of MIT undergraduates
do research in a specially designed program. I believe
Harvard might have one of those programs too.
A timetable might be to (1) identify a lab
you like by 2nd semester freshman (2) get your name
on a paper by junior so you can put that on graduate
applications.
MIT just created a new major called Biological Engineering.
(It had been lurking inside EE and ME for some decades.)
That way you can look keep the options of both med school
or engineering open. Since many med schools only admit
less than 10% of their applicants, they like people who can
do the traditional courses plus something special extra.

After going through a BS and PhD degrees and toiling away at postdoc-
like employments, I came to the conclusion that all that fancy paper
(double degree etc) does not matter for having a successful career.
What matters most are (1) an aptitude to do science, and (2)
connections. If you do not have connections, you can still have a
semblance of a career (probably), if you have good skills. The powers-
to-be will hire you to do difficult work. They look in applications
for the evidence of such a good skill. They pay attention, first of
all, at the applicants who finished the course at a reputable place in
a hard physical science. After finishing that, the world's your
oyster.